When the Workaround Is the Product | Alex Peacock

Every product team has that moment. Someone pitch a feature and says this is the one. Sometimes they are right. Sometimes they are very wrong. I am Marco Benitez.

And I am Jonas Ducker, and this is This Feature Will Safe Us, where we dig into the decisions, debates, and occasional disasters behind building great products. Let's get into it. Mr. Alex. Hey guys. How's it going?

How are you?

Good. How are you? Doing really well. We're very excited that this is the first episode and it's with you. So yeah, I'm very grateful. All right. Rapid fire questions. Let's kick it off. Easy one to start with. Favorite fitness product right now?

My favorite fitness product. So I'm I'm a runner and I really like the runner app. Um and I like it because it does one thing really well. It focuses on telling me what to do, holding me accountable. Uh if you if you're working towards a race, you can just tell it, okay, this is the race I'm doing, build me a plan, and and it does it, and and the plans actually work. So um yeah, that's my favorite. Awesome.

Red or black. That's your favorite color. Red or black?

Always black. Awesome. Cardio Sports or Strength Training. Cardio. Favorite food. Favorite food. I love Spanish food. Um outside of fitness and wellness, favorite app you're currently using?

Uh my favorite, certainly from a user experience point of view, is City Mapper. Uh I use it in every city I go. It's a UK company, and they they started building it's a journey mapping, um, but it's it's designed around the city, it looks at multimodal transport. It's just really simple. I need to get home, tell me how to get there. Really good UX, and they're they're adding a lot more cities all the time. So that's that's probably my my go-to outside of fitness.

Very good one. Married or single? Me, I'm married. No. Which one do you prefer? Which one do I prefer?

We're gonna skip that one too.

Most underrated metric in product. Most underrated metric. Um I would say in the context of apps, app store rating, I think it's easy to kind of become obsessed with product metrics internally, but actually your customers will really tell you what they think. So I think it's pretty underrated. I think it's it's important. Customers should be uh product builders should be focusing a bit more on what what their customers are saying, what their app store ratings are.

AI and fitness, good or bad?

It's great, it's gonna be game-changing. I think there's a lot more to see. I think there's gonna be a lot more utility coming over the next 12 months, but AI everywhere is uh is a huge opportunity.

No harm to any of the two, but conference HFA or FIBO?

Hmm, so I'm a European, so I've I've been going to FIBO for uh for a very long time. I think from uh from a scale and spectacle point of view, FIBO is uh is always good. But uh but HFA when it's in San Diego is pretty nice too.

Bad executions or bad prioritization?

Uh I think that depends on the stage of the company. So when you're early, prioritization will kill you first because if you keep building stuff nobody needs, then you're never going to break through. But once you get to scale, execution becomes much more important, especially in B2B, because you're looking to build credibility, scalability. That's perfect, leading into the next question B2B or B2C? I've always been in B2B, so that's uh that's my happy place.

All right. Well, Alex, you have been building a lot of products during the last, I don't know, how many years you have been building products and dreams for for other founders?

In the current uh in the current guys, four, but in total uh I've been doing this for 15 years or more.

Fifteen years. How many products? More or less, how many products did you were part of? I would say north of 50, less less than 100, probably. Wow, that's a lot. A lot of products. And do you realize that you are really helping a lot of founders to build dreams? That's really awesome. I mean, I'm a founder, so I know how difficult it is to build products. And now that you are helping them to do all these type of things, it's it's really amazing. Do you have any you cannot of course you can name it or not, whatever you feel comfortable? But do you do you remember your favorite one or favorite feature that you build during all these years?

Uh I mean I can't entirely take all the credit for this, but one of my favorite features, if I go back to the to the Netpulse days, we had a white label app for fitness operators, and we had a feature called X Capture. And at the time it was a feature where you could use the camera on your phone to take a picture of your console on your on your piece of cardio equipment, and it would record the workout summary at the end of your workout and put it into your workout history. And it was one of the features that has I've I've known every single time I demoed it, it had a kind of an instant reaction. It was like a wow, a wow feature. So um that would that one stands out for me. I think it was just one of those things that was so simple and so effective. At the time it sort of felt like witchcraft. Now it doesn't sound uh down sound super impressive. I mean, everybody's scanning their expenses receipts and you know AI's processing images every day, but but ten years ago it was uh it was pretty unique in what it was doing.

When you were building that or with your team and everyone, or what was your feeling in that moment, like re really impact you today?

I think it was simple, but it was solving a problem. For for us at the time, we were looking to try to create universal appeal. So it was the sort of the generality of it. The okay, well, um, you know, making all of your your gym floor connected and collecting all the data from all the equipment, it's gonna be so complicated. Wouldn't it be great if we could build something that actually just took all of that noise away and just worked every time? So I think in that context, it was we could see that it was gonna be a real differentiator for us.

On the point of like simple, is do you feel like when you're a builder, right? You're a builder, you've been doing this, you've been obviously sometimes in a leading role, in a delegating role, in a building role. Like, is simplicity sometimes that one ingredient that actually makes features versus kills features if it's getting too complex? What's your take on simplicity?

Yeah, yeah, I think it's it's something that is one of the most common things that that we see is products or apps that are sort of trying to be everything to everyone. Oh, we have to have a feature that solves this, we have to have a feature for that. And I think it's hard to have enough conviction in in one particular area to say, okay, this is what we want to be, this is where we want to go. But it's so important to have that focus because it that really helps in terms of actually when you come to making the hard decisions about priorities, then you need to have that kind of clarity and and and simplicity of thought to be able to navigate those conversations. Is that a product challenge or is that a company challenge? It it's both. I mean, it starts with the company, it starts with clarity of vision. If you understand what your vision is and what problems you're trying to solve as a company, then it becomes much easier to then build a product vision against that. But if the if if the vision from the top is is kind of fuzzy, then it's you know it's hard to create clarity lower down.

Do you think that was more because of the timing, or it was more because the feature itself, you know, it's always like the feature or timing. What's your thoughts around that?

It's it's both. I mean, I think if you're building products, it's trying to sort of strike that balance between being too early and and missing out. So timing is everything. It has to be you are you have to be building something that solves a problem that exists today, not a problem that may exist at some point in the future. But also, you know, that the the further along the process you get, the more crowded the market becomes. So timing is is pretty key.

Or maybe the the market is pushing at some point, right? Because, for example, I can see for example wearable devices like Apple Watch. Or even Polar and Garmin. They're they have have been building wearables since probably 20 years ago, maybe. And wearables are completely different, you know, they are in a very different momentum 20 years ago that what we have today. So So that's why I was asking about timing.

It's timing, the market is pushing, the company is pushing so hard during all these years that at some point someone everyone is going to it it depends if you're if you're if you're looking to create a category, then you've got to have plenty of resources and and and plenty of time at your disposal. So uh I I think as a as a startup, if you're early, if you're looking to create innovation, then you have to accept that you know creating a category or opening a market is is not for the faint-hearted. It's uh it's a long road.

I want to take actually timing as as an excuse to to do a little bit of a question more about timing on your end, um, because you obviously announced pretty recently still a new company, a new product that goes to market. Um correct me if I'm mistaken, but it's connect by leisure labs, right? Um what's the what's the timing? What's what what have you seen that was leading up to taking the decision to build Connect by Leisure Labs? And then obviously please give us also a short kind of intro to what this new company is about and how this is linked to Leisure Labs in the background. Yeah.

Yeah, sure. So I mean if I if I start with Leisure Labs, if I if I sort of step back to when we founded Leisure Labs four years ago, we we started the company as a custom development and digital transformation agency, really focused on the fitness and wellness space. But more than that, we wanted to really solve a particular problem that we saw, which is that a lot of organizations, particularly the enterprise, are really stuck in this kind of buy or build dilemma. Do they try and sort of solve problems with off-the-shelf solutions that you know may promise a lot but don't necessarily solve all of their problems well? Or do they build everything they need from scratch? And of course, the traditional agency model is um, you know, agencies are paid by the hour, so it's in their interests to build everything every time. And we we sort of looked at it and said, well, that doesn't really make sense from uh from a customer point of view, because if there is something that gets you 50% of the way there or 80% of the way there, then why don't you take that and build on top? So create this kind of hybrid buy versus build. And and this is really common in a lot of other sectors, but it's really not been historically that common in our sector. So we started with this kind of principle of we don't want to build stuff that already exists, and that that served us well as we as we scaled Leisure Labs. And and in fact, we grew more from just the development side into consulting, and and we did that because we realized that we were waiting for people to come and tell us what they wanted, and and a lot of the time they didn't really know. So actually, what we needed was was more product and consulting expertise to help our customers figure out what they wanted to build, and so that part of the business grew. And then last year we realized that actually there was the third part of the puzzle, which is okay, they know what they want, they know that they've now got to find something or build something, but now we have multiple customers that are trying to solve the same problems, and actually we can't find a product in the market that solves this problem. So, so what do we do? We don't want to build it five times over. So, actually, what is needed is a product fill a gap, and that was where Kinect came from because we said, well, actually, where we see common requirements from multiple organizations and we see an unmet need for a product, why don't we build the product? Um, and so we we set up a product company which is Kinect. We teamed up with Danny Woods, who's the CEO of that that business, and Danny is Danny is running that, and it it's a it it it's a it's a SAS, it's a product company. So um it thinks very differently from the the consulting and the the agency business, but it's built against unmet need um and the the first thing that we're really focusing on is building personalization at scale. So personalization engine is is the sort of first product out of the gate for Kinect, which is uh something we launched at the beginning of this year. Awesome.

And I mean, especially with like the AI hype, the build or buy decision might even be more relevant today, right? Because a lot more companies will believe, oh, we can build, we don't have to buy. So like I think that's a pretty strategic move because you you get them so far ready, and then it's or they work with the agency side to get the rest done, or they can actually build on top by themselves.

Yeah, and that that's the flip side of it, is yes, it's much easier to build or to vibe code or you know to prototype, but it's also much easier to connect things together. So as you look at kind of interoperability between systems, AI in particular is is making that much easier than it was five years ago to actually take multiple systems and and multiple components and connect them together. So you don't need to find the silver bullet, the single product that that does everything. You can say, well, actually, here are five products that all have a great application in my business, and I just need to connect them together and and you know, AI is really good at doing that. I think you see people now talking much more about their own personal tech stacks than ever before. It was uh that was was not really a thing that was kind of mainstream conversation a few years ago, but now everybody has you know half a dozen AI tools that they use for different different parts of their their own productivity stack. So that's happening at personal level and and obviously at an organizational level as well.

Which is crazy, right? Now you have this big tool, AI tool, which is like a black box at the end of the day, that you can do whatever you want and you can try things really quickly with your experience and your team experience, you can narrow in the story in a way that the clients can understand. And that for me leads me a question for you. How do you build these new features and everything when you talk with a lot of founders, you talk with a lot of CAOs, CTOs, product managers? How do you narrow in that story? Because we as the founders, we at uh C levels or maybe uh managers, we have so many things in our minds, and we recollect data in terms of new features with investors, with our clients, internal feedback, and then you're this third party that it's trying to narrow in everything in only one thing because also we don't have a lot of money, as you well know. As a startup. So how do you play with all these things in your company?

It's a team effort, right? So you've got a lot of different stakeholders. Uh, and again, it depends a lot on the the stage that you're at. So we're dealing with enterprise organizations that have a team of a hundred in their in their technology organizations. So we're dealing with all of the different parts of that and the different stakeholders, but we're also dealing with the C level at a startup level, it's very different. I mean, you may be dealing with a founder or maybe a couple of co-founders that have the different ingredients in there, but ultimately what you have somewhere along the line is you have you've got product, you've got engineering and you've got commercial. So, whatever form that takes, if the if the the CEO is the is the product guy, then the role there is going to be to sort of protect the vision and you know protect the how do we build something that is sort of strategically coherent. The commercial side, it's all about you know, what does the customer want? Well, what is the customer asking for? And then you know, engineering is always going to want to build the best thing that possibly can. So you've got that sort of tension between those three. And in in different companies, it's you know, it's whole teams of people that are represented across those three different areas. But in a startup, it may be one or two people. It's rare for it to be one person that's doing all three, but often you'll you'll have sort of product and commercial here and then and then engineering, the CTO, co-founder. But our role really is to figure out okay, who are the stakeholders, who's responsible for the product and the product vision, and who's responsible for what the customer wants, the voice of the customer, and then who's responsible for the kind of the technical feasibility, what we're building, and and are we building it in the right way? And sometimes that's uh it's different people. Sometimes it's us.

And how do you cut through the noise? Because it's like uh too many, too many people talking to you to build something. How do you define which one do you have to hear?

I mean, you have to you have to listen to all three to to some extent. The most important thing really is to try and sort of create consensus of outcome. So, okay, the customer is asking for this, product want to build this, engineering want to want to do this over here, but actually, does everybody have the sort of same shared vision for where this product is going? Because if the voice of the customer is not focused on the right customers, then you're going to get the wrong messaging coming in. If engineering are building an enterprise platform, and actually what you're trying to do is create a sort of an early prototype, then there's a problem there. So it's it's really the first thing to do is okay, does everybody here have the same vision of what we're actually creating, what we're building? And then if if not, then you've got to try and create some sort of consensus of outcome before you can even get into the the sort of the healthy tension that you see between those three areas.

So that means that you help to align the vision at some point, or it's because do you have any story where everyone has a different like idea to build something and it's for you to take that decision?

Um I mean we've had situations this doesn't go away in big organizations either. I mean, we we have if I think about in startups, it's it's almost easier because you've got a small team and and they're usually a lot more invested in in success and and they're they're really invested in an idea. But the larger the organization gets, the more competing priorities you get, and the more, I guess, different motives you get, the business becomes much more complicated. So I'd say in some ways it's actually harder when you have larger teams. We have examples where actually customers will bring us in, and this is where I spoke earlier about, you know, we we started more on the building side, and actually we've grown the consulting side of the business a lot in the last couple of years. And the reason for that is actually we found that particularly larger organizations, they want somebody to help them navigate that internally, or you know, in some cases get out of their own way. And actually, we'll we'll often come in and we'll we'll run a workshop or we'll we'll we'll run a series of programs where we can sort of help an organization create internal alignment around what they they're looking to achieve. It's it's a process.

Like, did you ever come to a situation where you were like, internally you are so not aligned, we can't help you until you don't really align internally on what you want to actually achieve, what you actually want to build?

Yeah, I think I think we see pockets of that. So I can't necessarily point to an example of completely stepping away from an entire project or an entire engagement, but this happens a lot in pockets where it will be, I think you need to figure this piece out first, or I think we need to come back to this in six months. Why don't we why don't we look at tackling this problem first? So we'll often sort of help guide our customers on the timing of things and the sequencing of their efforts when you Because it's difficult to try and you know force something in that there are other factors in the organization or other things that need to be considered before you can actually start to create alignment. It is.

And that led me to another question. And do you remember a company saying something like this feature will save us? Or in other words, like this is going to be the one that it's going to help us to move to the next revenue stage or maybe to engage with the end users or with our customers. And you had that feeling that it's not going to work?

I think we saw a lot of that in 2021. And I think a lot of brick and mortar fitness operators believed that they needed to suddenly become digital companies. And every other conversation was about omni-channel. How do we create an omnichannel brand? And how do we we want our digital community to be as big as our as our physical community? And that wasn't one company. I mean, that was that was everybody in the industry for a for a period of time. And I think it took the industry a little while to figure out that actually the strength is in the human contact, the physical community. People want to go back to the gym, they want to go and work out, and they want the human connection. Trying to compete in a digital marketplace when you're a brick and mortar company doesn't entirely make sense. And I think a lot of companies put an awful lot into that effort, which they've you know subsequently rode back on quite a bit. So um yeah, I think there are many examples of that.

It's crazy, right? Those days when we were in COVID, it was like a bubble, right? And I remember omni-channel was the worst in all the conference, everyone was talking about omni channel and Netflix, Peloton, you know, all the big brands doing different types of things in the in in the fitness space for the omni channel was really crazy. General speaking, pandemics. If you think about it, everyone in their own houses working and doing fitness, and it was really crazy, crazy moments.

I wanna I wanna change gears again a bit and and go back a bit more to like the conflict or the challenge between vision of a company versus product vision and product roadmap. It feels like things are just accelerating at an at a crazy insane speed, especially and it's a lot through the hype of AI that people think now we can do what we've planned for like the next four or five years, suddenly all in in just a year or two. How do you manage expectations with clients and partners of yours now that maybe accelerate company visions and then where roadmaps actually can't really hold up? Because there's still a reality of like a gap between what is possible with these new technologies versus what is still needed to be done at the back of these vibe coding tools, at the nicely quickly set up of front-end solutions. There's there's a lot more to it. And you know that you've been building for such a long time, like the whole back-end sides, how connectivity works, there's regulated spaces where data privacy, cybersecurity things that that's often not really covered or discussed in when you see just the quick vibe coding. Like, yeah, how do you manage really expectations of clients and partners versus reality of roadmap and backlogs, um, especially in this Accelerate space today?

I think what we're looking for really is if we think about the product roadmap and the product vision, we're looking for kind of stability at a high level and flexibility at a low level. So what I mean by that is the long-term vision and the long-term uh objectives and outcomes and problems that you're trying to solve need to kind of stay relatively stable. But at uh you know, a quarterly level, you're going to be constantly reassessing how you how you meet those priorities. And then on a day-to-day level, I mean the sort of the sprint level execution is going to be changing all the time, and it's it's gonna be the day-to-day priorities are gonna be moving constantly, and the quarterly priorities are gonna be moving based on okay, we've we've now seen a shift here. I mean, we we were we were working on a product uh a few years ago, which was a chat product, and we were working on it before LLMs were released, and and so we we were kind of aware of this thing that was coming, and you know, halfway through building a a sort of simple chat agent, suddenly we had access to to these large language models at an enterprise level, and we were able to kind of plug into that. And the change in terms of the product that that we were able to deliver almost overnight was it was completely 100x, but the problem that we were solving and the the actual the actual customer experience itself wasn't that different. It was just suddenly this this opportunity had opened up to basically leverage these models, which we'd never been able to do before. So that's the kind of thing where the last thing you would want to do at that stage is to say, oh, we're just gonna ignore this new thing, this new AI tool that's out there, we're just gonna keep building uh simple chat and we're gonna not take advantage of any of this stuff that's coming out. That would be totally the wrong thing to do. So you've got to have that flexibility and approach, but it didn't change what we were actually looking to create in the problem we were looking to solve. That makes sense, yeah.

It's it's still challenging, right? Uh especially I imagine this more like you being as a third party. I see it internally, just to give an example from our end. Like we obviously see always like we have our bigger picture vision, we have the roadmap, we do our planning for the roadmap and the backlog. And then obviously you get a lot of pressure from the outside world. You see competitors moving extremely fast, you see other companies doing a lot of new things, launching new products, and you're like, okay. Um, and you start pressuring maybe even your own team. So, like, and now I imagine still, like, if you work with a third party and you representing that third party, Alex, then I feel like there's it's even easier that these companies will pressure you on like, hey, Alex, we need to move faster. Like why is the competitor moving so quick and why can't we move faster? Like, because even since it's like outside, easier to push the pressure to someone, I guess, than than if it's the internal own team. So yeah, what's how do you how do you is that happening a lot? Is that something you feel constantly? Is that something that's managed through expectation?

For sure. It's always about the kind of the iron triangle as well, in terms of you know, what what is the constraint? Is it time, is it cost, or is it scope? So do you want to build the best thing you possibly can, regardless of how long it takes and how much it costs? Do you want to build as quickly as possible and you know get to market quickly, you know, for as for as little money and as possible and build the kind of the MVP, build the smallest thing you can? Or is it like this is the amount of money we've got to spend, how do we make it go as far as possible? So it's that uh it's the triple constraint effectively of those three. And and the first thing that we do with any uh with any project or any client is try and understand what order are those in? What is the number one of those three constraints? And then, you know, how do we how do we go from there? So are we trying to build, you know, as fast as possible? Are we trying to build the best thing possible, or are we trying to do it, you know, make the money go as far as possible?

But it's very abstract, do you think, Alex? It's like uh also trying to define MVP or build as fast as possible, or even you know, for me it's very abstract. I'm as a builder. Trying to build an MVP, it's like uh okay, what's an MVP? I know, I know that I know what that means, but it's like uh meeting expectations of the clients, it's really complicated. And nowadays with AI, everyone thinks that you can build the complete product only with the with one script. So, how do you fulfy this to your clients? Because again, align expectations it's really difficult. And more if you are a third party, how do you handle these type of things with your clients?

So AI is is actually massively helpful in this because it means that we can go a lot further in the very early stages. So, what used to happen with with development is that you would have, you know, the customer would try and articulate what they what they wanted, you would try and put it into user stories, they would sign off on the user stories, you would go through this whole process of you know traditional development and then the designs, and you'd go back and forth on the designs, and then you'd build it. And at every stage it would be, ah, okay, that's not quite what we thought, or that's not quite working in the way that we thought it was going to, or that's not quite what I meant. So you're constantly course correcting and and recalibrating. Whereas now with AI image generation and and vibe coding, you can say, Okay, I've heard what you said, now I've built a prototype of what we think that looks like. Is this what you mean? Ah, okay, yeah, that's oh no, that's not what I meant. Can we move this over here? So suddenly, before you even get into the process, I think the most important thing is this distinction between a proof of concept that you can build in, you know, now in a few hours versus a production-ready product. But what it is helpful with is the ability to make sure that when you do build a production-ready product, whatever that looks like, you're not suddenly unveiling this thing at the end and it's not what the customer was expecting it to be because you've been able to iterate, and in some cases, you've even been able to do you know, you can do user testing so much earlier than you ever could before, because you can build a build a thing and and vibe code it and test it. And actually, it's it's not difficult to to build different versions and an A-B test, and the opportunity in product development is huge. So we find that it's being really helpful in actually unlocking a lot more of that clarity much earlier on because we can bring things to life much earlier in the process than we ever have been able to before.

I love that part. On that note, I wanted to jump in. Do you have a lot of partners and clients now reach out to you and they already have something vibe code? Like they they did already a pre-work, being like, I think that's what we need and that's what we want, or or is that still more on your end that you just use this as a tool to show prototyping and get sign-off from a partner from a client?

It's a mixture. I would say it's probably 20% of the time they would come with something vibe coded. I think maybe we'll see that that increase. But what we will often do now is we will actually go through that process with the customer. So where we might do a product workshop, historically that would have, you know, we'd have a vision board or a, you know, at the end of it, we'd have a lot of post-it notes on a wall, and we'd have to then sort of go away and capture that. But what we'll actually do now is is we can workshop with the customer, and we can actually have a vibe-coded proof of concept at the end of the workshop. So what you're coming out with is a very different outcome. And and to be able to say actually we'll get to that in you know, in a workshop of a day or or or two days, and at the end of it, we'll we'll have actually worked with you to sort of build this proof of concept that we can then go away and and and deliver, you're creating the the certainty there and then. So that that's probably the most common thing that we we do is is we'll actually you know we'll co-create it with the customer.

That's really interesting because maybe not in the future. I think this is something that we are living today. Maybe the new founders and the new startups, the the founders are not going to be technical founders at the end of the day. And they are going to be more focused on the dream, more focused on the product. Maybe they will build something with lovable or base 44, all this vibe coding, and then they will send you everything to you, and then you can build the real good stuff, right? And you will have more tools to build because now you are not going to be only extracting the what they say, but also they will you will have this like okay, this is what they want, let's improve it, let's make it very secure with whatever they need to build, like HIPAA, GDPR, whatever. And then you will have more like tangible product, right? So maybe this is going to happen more and more. For sure.

Um, I think we will see a lot more of that use of those tools. And the good thing is that you can be non-technical or or moderately technical and be able to actually get a lot further. You know, you once you get, I come back to my point about scale, and when you get to a point where you're you're actually building something for for production for scale, vibe coding it is is a dangerous game to play. And we've seen all sorts of horror stories of you know vibe coding products going to to mass market and and being out there and actually you know realizing that nobody actually understands how this product was built or how it how it works because it was all built by AI. So so I think uh there is a there is a point at which you know it you need to you need the human in the loop piece, but to actually get to uh articulate an idea in in a product, you can go a lot further without any real sort of technology background, which is interesting. And I think the other the other aspect of that to consider is not just the fact that customers can come to us with much more clarity, but if you actually consider the impact it has on on investment, you know, as someone that's you know been through that and and been out and raised capital, you know how hard it is to convince investors that your idea is is uh is you know bring your idea to life in a way that interests them. So actually, if if you can do that without having to to go out and and you know do any sort of heavy, heavy engineering lift, but you can actually put a product in their hands and this is what we're we're creating, and you know it creates a different story for investors as well.

Back in 2021, everyone was raising on a on a presentation. Now it's on the vibe code solution. Exactly.

Exactly.

Coming slowly to a closing, Alex. Um, and based on the motto of our podcast, this feature will save us. We have to make the question of so what is the feature that's gonna save us? What's the the killer feature, the next feature on the horizon? Uh anything you can share from own products to from connect to clients.

I think I would go relatively broad with this and say hyper-personalization at scale. So I think this isn't you know one single use case, but actually the thing that is going to really be a step change for our industry in particular is the ability to actually do deliver proper hyper-personalisation and whether that's really, really effective workout prescription or whether it's personalized recommendations, personalized content. I think that's what is going to be a step change for us from a technology standpoint over the next 12 to 24 months. And I think we're starting to see, I don't think anybody's really doing it well yet. Um, but we're starting to see some really, some really interesting kind of early signs of now, now that it is possible to have a completely personalized experience, the technology, the infrastructure exists. I think you know there's a lot of companies investing a lot of money in this, so I think we're gonna really start to see some some results over the next year or two.

Awesome. On this note, that's great. We'll close it out. We appreciate you coming on, Alex. Uh for folks, Leisure Labs, uh, they can find you on LinkedIn, personal, as well as as as the company, right? Or what's the best point to Yeah.

Link LinkedIn is always the best place to find us. You can check us out online at at leisure labs.co.uk as well. Awesome.

We will link this as well to the first episode that will go live. One more time. Thanks so much, Alex, for being the first guest here.

Thanks for having me. Great to chat today. Alex, what's a pleasure? Thank you so much for your time. That's a grab on this feature. Will save us. If you are building with wearable or hell data, check out what we are doing at tryrook.io.

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